Mid-West Humanists ask Minister for Education not to entrench religious control of National Schools

Posted on April 27th, 2015 by peterohara

A delegation from the Mid-West Humanists met Jan O’Sullivan T.D. Minister for Education and Skills on 24 April 2015, about the Leases of National Schools.

Our National Schools – origins and rules

Now most people believe that our National Schools are tied to principles of various religions (mostly the Roman Catholic religion).

Well, the popular awareness of the origin of National Schools is correct, that the United Kingdom government set them up from 1830 onwards. The government wanted Trustees for each school to include people of a mixture of religions. No such mixed Trustees volunteered, and only sets of clergy of a single religion became Trustees. From the religion of the Trustees, National Schools got called Roman Catholic schools, Church of Ireland schools, etc.

Historians have described the one-religion nature of every set of Trustees as the churches subverting the UK government’s plan. However the plan was subverted only in that the Trustees do not include a mixture of religions.

The Lease of each school vested the running of the school in Trustees, who thereby promised to run the school by the Lease and by the rules from the Minister for Education. From the beginning to the end, the Leases did not mention a religion.

The Leases write “…the object of the system of National Education is to afford Combined literary and moral, and Separate Religious Instruction to children of all persuasions, as far as possible in the same school, upon the fundamental principle that no attempt shall be made to interfere with the peculiar religious tenets of any pupil.”

This may be a surprise to readers, as our National Schools are indeed controlled by clergy of religions – and to most people this includes the idea that those clergy as Trustees run the schools in the style of that particular religion, and that they are entitled to run them in a religious manner. This is actually contrary to the statement in the Lease that we just mentioned. Continue reading →

Filed under: atheism, constitution, education, humanism, ireland, law, political issues, religion, Secularism, social issues | Tagged: atheism, constitution of ireland, Deed of Variation, equal rights, Human Rights, humanism, National School, National School Lease, religion, roman catholic, secularism, society | Leave a comment »

Minister for Education responds to our request for State Secular schools, and we reply

Posted on March 19th, 2015 by peterohara

The Mid West Humanists met the Minister for Education and Skills Jan O’Sullivan TD on 28 November 2014. We told her then that we seek a system of State secular schools to replace the present system of schools devolved to patrons. We put our detailed requests in writing also.

On 10 March the Minister responded to our request. We sent a reply to the Minister on 16 March. We show both of these here. You will see that the Minister and Department of Education and Skills are making some changes. Yet the need for a peaceful society is still for schools to be secular and not divided by religion, and the State should own the schools. The Minister’s letter does not mention this our main idea.

In our reply we noted to the Minister that at present, because 92% of primary schools are under the Roman Catholic patrons, those schools could feel some duty now to adapt to pupils who are not Roman Catholic. Recently the Roman Catholic bishops in Ireland wrote a report about this adaptation, and the publication alone shows that they feel under some such pressure. Our response to the Minister is about this pressure, and how even that pressure will disappear if the country’s schools come to contain a substantial minority of schools with patrons which treat all children in a secular, egalitarian manner. The RC schools would then be more like their own ethos than they are now, and children at those schools would hear little of the variety of cultures that exist in Ireland.
We are not endorsing the particular plans in the report, which Atheist Ireland has reviewed and found greatly wanting.

The Minister’s letter to the Mid West Humanists: –

10 March 2015

Dear Mr O’Hara,

I refer to your correspondence following our meeting in November 2014. Please accept my apologies for the delay in replying to you. Continue reading →

Filed under: atheism, constitution, education, humanism, ireland, political issues, Secularism, social issues | Tagged: constitution of ireland, equal rights, Human Rights, law, secularism, society | Leave a comment »

We campaign to remove Blasphemy from the Constitution, on the streets

Posted on March 19th, 2015 by peterohara

The Mid West Humanists have been on the street in Limerick, giving leaflets to the public on why we should remove the sentence that makes blasphemy an offence, from the Constitution as soon as possible.

We have stood at the corner of Thomas Street and O’Connell Street in Limerick on 24 January 2015, and 2 further times. We displayed a map of the world showing the countries that have laws against blasphemy. We gave leaflets with the reasons to remove the law now, as outlined in January 2015 after the Charlie Hebdo murders in Paris.

People could also sign a petition, which we will bring to TDs, when there are enough signatures, to ask for the referendum to remove this sentence from the constitution.

There is to a similar stand soon on the street in Ennis.

We should have a referendum in 2015 to remove the provision that makes Blasphemy an offence from Ireland’s Constitution. Sign a petition, or visit all your TDs to give your view.

Filed under: announcements, blasphemy, constitution, Dáil Éireann, debate, humanism, political issues, Secularism | Tagged: blasphemy, constitution of ireland, free speech, secularism, society | Leave a comment »

Respect for persons; no respect for ideas; Limerick school was right to let Charlie Hebdo in the classroom

Posted on February 7th, 2015 by peterohara

While I would like to vote in a referendum to remove the sentence from Ireland’s Constitution that makes blasphemy a crime, I am writing now to help distinguish between (1) respect for humans and their rights, and (2) culture and ideas (including religious culture and ideas) having no rights to respect. Instead, ideas should be open to criticism, and people have rights to make criticism and to live in a society where other people make criticisms too.

Especially when you are a child, but also throughout all of life, a really good society is one where various people are making criticisms of various ideas and elements of culture and society, with no long intervals between such criticisms both in the public news and in your private life. In so far as I have a right to have a good society in which to live, I have a right to such criticisms going on all the time.

The Limerick Leader reported on 05 February 2015

that a teacher at Limerick Educate Together School recently asked pupils to bring in matter relevant to the French Revolution of 1789 and freedom of speech; and a pupil took in a copy of the Charlie Hebdo of 14 01 2015, which the teacher showed to the pupils, and this offended a pupil who is Muslim;
and –
that a parent of this second pupil, as well as complaining to the school, gave the following view to the Limerick Leader – that the cover picture has caused great insult within the Islam community in Ireland and the world; and that the child was “subjected” to seeing the magazine; and that parents teach children to have respect for all peoples and for their cultures and for their religions, of which educators should be mindful. This read as if the magazine being shown in the class took away from such respect.

I agree fully with respect for all people, but disagree entirely with the idea of an obligation to have respect for any culture.

1. I favour respect for all persons and their legal, constitutional, and human rights, and the special rights of children: and special rights means, because they are growing up, that children need both protection from dangers AND open availability of information so that they can grow into good citizens, which includes understanding the cultures of the society in which they live.

Continue reading →

Filed under: blasphemy, constitution, cultural issues, education, islam, law, religion, Secularism, social issues | Tagged: blasphemy, constitution of ireland, free speech, Human Rights, islam, law, Limerick Educate Together School, Limerick Leader, religion, secularism, society | 2 Comments »

Media Release – Mid West Humanists meet Minister for Education and ask that Ireland have a State Secular system of schools

Posted on November 29th, 2014 by peterohara

This is what we sent to the local press after the visit to the Minister for Education and Skills

Mid West Humanists

An Atheist Community in Limerick, Clare, and Tipperary

www.midwesthumanists.com/ info@midwesthumanists.com

www.facebook.com/groups/midwesthumanists/ 28 November 2014

MEDIA RELEASE

For Immediate Release

Mid-West Humanists meet Minister for Education and Skills and ask that Ireland have a State Secular system of schools

Members of the Mid-West Humanists (MWH) met Jan O’Sullivan TD Minister for Education and Skills on 28 November 2014 to ask that Ireland’s system of schools, primary and second-level, be changed to a state system of entirely secular schools.

The Mid West Humanists said to the Minister that the present education system discriminates against children who have no religion and breaches their human rights by denying them access to an education free from the teaching of religious beliefs as facts. These children have the same rights as those of any religion to be taught in an objective manner by the teachers, whom their parents also pay through their taxes. In the last census in 2011 there were 256,000 people who stated that they had no religion, though the true number is substantially more.

The present system – the Patronage system – is biased towards religion, and towards some few religions even more strongly.

There are 3200 primary schools in Ireland. For 94% of these schools, the Patron is a religious organisation, and for 90% the Patron is Roman Catholic. Of the 3200 schools, 1800 are each more than 10km from the nearest other primary school. These all have Roman Catholic patrons. These schools are smaller than average, and these districts cannot support 2 schools.
The changes that the Mid-West Humanists seek to Ireland’s education system, in addition to removing the bias and the discrimination, will make it easier for government to deal with the increasing variety of religions to which people in Ireland belong – including making it easier to provide education.

The secular system that we propose would also liberate teachers who are unhappily forced to teach values in which they no longer believe.

Continue reading →

Filed under: atheism, Census, education, humanism, ireland, political issues, religion, Secularism, social issues | Tagged: atheism, equal rights, Human Rights, humanism, society | Leave a comment »

Constitutional Convention Deadline Wednesday 27 11 2013

Posted on November 26th, 2013 by peterohara

Submissions to the Constitutional Convention will close on the Convention’s close of business on 27th November 2013

I regret that I posted previously, on 14 11 2013, that the Convention would cease taking submissions on 19 11 2013. I had thought that this news which I received was reliable.

On Monday 25 11 2013 the Convention’s website showed a new notice, that the Convention will accept its last submissions at its close of business on Wednesday 27 11 2013.

So you can still send a submission, and we ask all people without religion, and people with religion who want a secular society and a secular constitution, to make his or her own submission to that effect.

The Constitutional Convention is to hold its last 2 weekend meetings in February 2014. The subjects which they will discuss on those weekends are not settled, and the Convention’s members will vote in early December 2013 on what these will be.

The Convention’s members will use the list of subjects on which people made submissions to the Convention website. They have full discretion and are not bound by the number of submissions on a subject, but may be considering the quality of the submissions.

The website is going to stop taking submissions on 27 November 2013.

Any person who wants to make a submission to the Constitutional Convention needs to put the submission on the Convention website by 27 November 2013. After that date the Constitutional Convention will cease taking submissions on its website.

At present it is not in any way guaranteed that the secular questions (other than blasphemy) will be discussed.

You can make it more likely that the main secular questions will be discussed, by sending in your individual submission, which need not be long or complicated.

See the previous post for some ideas.

Blasphemy was discussed at the Convention’s meeting on Saturday 02 and Sunday 03 November 2013. The vote was to remove the anti-blasphemy clause.

At present the Convention’s website says it has 709 submissions in its “Submissions – Other” list. There are also at least 14 submissions for a Secular Constitution in the “Blasphemy” list. The three largest groups of submissions are on these subjects:-

Separate Church and State (Secular Constitution) – 188;

Environment to be protected in the constitution – 151;

We have heard from Convention officials that there may be several tens of submissions on the Environment waiting to be put up on the website.

Economic, Social, and Cultural rights (ESC) (includes a Home) – 140.

Of the 188 submissions asking for a Secular Constitution, some of these are about all the parts that need to be changed, and some are on single subjects, such as the Preamble, or the Declarations for President, Council of State, and Judges.

Send your submission now.

Filed under: blasphemy, constitution, ireland, political issues, religion, Secularism | Tagged: blasphemy, constitution of ireland, equal rights, Human Rights, law, politics, religion, society | Leave a comment »

Constitutional Convention Public Meeting in Limerick 27 Nov 2013

Posted on November 14th, 2013 by peterohara

The Constitutional Convention has held meetings of its members for several weekends in 2013. The last one on Saturday 02 and Sunday 03 November voted to recommend removing the clause that states that Blasphemy is an offence.

The Convention it to meet over 2 weekends in February 2014 to discuss issues beyond the issues that the Government sent to it.

The Convention’s website has been open to the public to put up submissions on what other issues it will discuss in February 2014. This will close on 19 November.

The Convention has held evening meetings open to the public, also to receive submissions (you take your turn to stand up and speak).

There is to be a public meeting in Limerick

at 19:30 on Wednesday 27 November 2014

in the Strand Hotel.

The Mid West Humanists suggest that any person who wants the Constitution changed so that it is secular and free of religious influences attend the meeting and tell the Convention how they want the Constitution to be changed.

The other meetings were in

Cork 23 October

Galway 30 October

Waterford 7 November

Dublin 11 and 13 November

They will meet at 19:30 in these venues

Sligo 19 November Sligo City Hall

Athlone 20 November Radison SAS Hotel

Monaghan 25 November Monaghan Institute of Further Education and Training.

Limerick 27 November Strand Hotel

Filed under: announcements, constitution, humanism, ireland, Meetings, political issues, Secularism, social issues | Tagged: blasphemy, constitution of ireland, equal rights, Human Rights, ireland, politics, religion, society | Leave a comment »

Constitutional Convention Deadline

Posted on November 14th, 2013 by peterohara

Submissions to the Constitutional Convention will close on 19th November 2013

The website is going to stop taking submissions on 19 November 2013.

Any person who wants to make a submission to the Constitutional Convention needs to put the submission on the Convention website by 19 November 2013. After that date the Constitutional Convention will cease taking submissions on its website.

The Mid West Humanists have encouraged people of no religion, and also people with religion who would like a secular constitution, to put their own submission on the Convention’s website.

We have aimed since the Convention was announced in 2011 to seek to have it consider a plan to make the Constitution secular.

At present it is not in any way guaranteed that the secular questions (other than blasphemy) will be discussed.

You can make it more likely that the main secular questions will be discussed, by sending in your individual submission, which need not be long or complicated. See further down for some ideas.

Blasphemy was discussed at the Convention’s meeting on Saturday 02 and Sunday 03 November 2013. The vote was to remove the anti-blasphemy clause.

At present the Convention’s website says it has 620 submissions in its “Submissions – Other” list. There are also at least 14 submissions for a Secular Constitution in the “Blasphemy” list. The three largest groups of submissions are on these subjects:-

Separate Church and State (Secular Constitution) – 158;

Environment to be protected in the constitution – 137;

Economic, Social, and Cultural rights (ESC) (includes a Home) – 135.

Of the 158 submissions asking for a Secular Constitution, some of these are about all the parts that need to be changed, and some are on single subjects, such as the Preamble, or the Declarations for President, Council of State, and Judges.

In order for the changes to make a Secular Constitution get discussed at the Convention, this subject must receive as many individual submissions as possible, not form letters or emails. The Mid West Humanists have encouraged people to write their own submissions and not to copy another person’s submission. We hope this will mean more submissions of good quality, which we hear is more important than the number of submissions.

The Mid West Humanists recommend any person who thinks the Constitution should be secular to make her or his own submission. Here are what the Convention’s website will ask of you:

Name (will be shown on their website)
(some submitters have entered other than their true name, but their submissions are on the website)

County (will be shown on their website)

Title of your submission (will be shown on their website)

Address; email address – WILL NOT BE ON WEBSITE;

Telephone number (optional) WILL NOT BE ON WEBSITE;

Submission version 1 in a text box – maximum 1000 characters including spaces. (will be shown on their website)

Submission version 2, being a doc or pdf file that you create (optional). (will be shown on their website)

You can make quick reference to the main Articles of the Constitution that have too much religious content in the text box with 1000 characters. It is sufficient to count as a submission that you give a title that clearly shows the issue you intend. You will have shown enough substance in your submission if you put a few sentences about the issue in the text box.

For a submission in favour of a secular constitution we think it will be enough if you name some of these Articles and that you want them removed or made secular. There are already some submissions with arguments for these changes: not every submission needs to detail the arguments.

Tell the Constitutional Convention that you want the Constitution to be Secular

Posted on September 19th, 2013 by peterohara

The Mid West Humanists have sent one submission to the Constitutional Convention that the Blasphemy offence should be deleted;

another submission that several items in the Constitution should be changed to make the constitution secular; both on 24 May 2013;

and on 19 September 2013 a third submission that repeats the part of the second one that deals with a President, a judge, and a member of the Council of State being obliged to declare on starting the post that they so declare “in the presence of Almighty God“. We sent this because the Tánaiste making that declaration at the Council of State in July 2013 illustrated the bad effects of the mention of a god.

We have aimed since the Convention was announced in 2011 to seek to have it consider a plan to make the Constitution secular.

I write now because it is not in any way guaranteed that the secular questions (other than blasphemy) will be discussed.

You can make it more likely that the main secular questions will be discussed, by sending in your individual submission, which need not be long or complicated. See further down for some ideas.

Blasphemy will definitely be considered – at the Convention’s meeting on Saturday 02 and Sunday 03 November 2013. The Dail and Senate in July 2012 listed blasphemy as one of the topics that the Convention is to consider. The Convention’s website now states that on 02 and 03 November there will also begin consideration of Other Amendments. Other Amendments will get more discussion at the Convention’s last listed meeting on Saturday 30 November and Sunday 01 December.

As I write the Convention’s website says it has 301 submissions in its “Submissions – Other” list. The three largest groups of submissions are on these subjects:-

Right to a home;

Environment to be protected in the constitution;

Economic, Social, and Cultural rights (ESC).

I have not counted these submissions, but these 3 groups have at least 50 submissions each. On the website you cannot filter those or any other groups in order to count them, nor can you separate the Secular submissions from the “Other” set.

As I write there are 27 submissions asking for a Secular Constitution. Some of these are about all the parts that need to be changed, and some are on single subjects, such as the Preamble, or the Declarations for President, Council of State, and Judges.

In order for the changes to make a Secular Constitution get discussed at the Convention, this subject must receive more submissions.

The Mid West Humanists recommend any person who thinks the Constitution should be secular to make her or his own submission. Here are what the Convention’s website will ask of you:

Name (will be shown on their website)
(some submitters have entered other than their true name, but their submissions are on the website)

County (will be shown on their website)

Title of your submission (will be shown on their website)

Address; email address – WILL NOT BE ON WEBSITE;

Telephone number (optional) WILL NOT BE ON WEBSITE;

Submission version 1 in a text box – maximum 1000 characters including spaces. (will be shown on their website)

Submission version 2, being a doc or pdf file that you create (optional). (will be shown on their website)

Secular weddings and the Humanist Association of Ireland

Posted on July 17th, 2013 by peterohara

Marcus Brooks and Joni Spence commented on the report of the 19 June meeting discussion on the HAI EGM and the problem with their Celebrants being made state Solemnisers. Many visitors to our website would like to understand what this is about.

The criticism of the Humanist Association of Ireland (HAI) for accepting its Celebrants being legal Solemnisers of state marriages, under the Civil Registration Amendment Act 2012, is not that the HAI should not provide marriage and civil partnership ceremonies that are also the legal bond, but that accepting this generally admirable plan under this particular law will inhibit the HAI from secular campaigning. And Ireland needs a national body that will campaign vigorously (not weakly) for a secular state and a secular society.

Mid West Humanists’ views on secular marriages

People who have come to the Mid West Humanists’ (MWH) meetings have talked of secular marriage ceremonies many times. The commonest view has been about people who want a marriage, wanting to have the ceremony free of any religious matter. I think people who spoke also wanted not to be involved in the hypocrisy of using a church organisation for their wedding when they do not believe in a god, and have not and will not be attending the church for years before and after the marriage. People also wanted not to show hypocrisy by marrying in a church when they say to their relatives and friends that they have no religion. Some people who have come to MWH meetings have talked of the difficulty in getting people to believe that you do not have a religion.

In 2011 several meetings discussed whether we could do something to have the HSE improve the decor of the Registry Office in St Camillus’ Hospital Limerick, to a standard that two people and their few guests would feel good enough for the ceremony of a major new stage of their lives. We didn’t get around to doing anything.

New attenders and visitors to the website often ask how to contact a humanist celebrant, and we always give a contact for the Celebrants of the Humanist Association of Ireland. There is a link to this in the left sidebar.

I’ve never heard anyone speak in favour of having two procedures or events: but I can see a person wanting to have the legal start of his or her marriage being like any other formal signing of a contract, and thus being free to have the party run in any way they like – this person might want to have two events.

Humanist Association of Ireland and Marriages

The question within the Humanist Association of Ireland is not about the State registering marriages with the officiant or solemniser having no connection to a religion. Up to 2012 the only non-religious officiants have been the State’s registrars. Many Mid West Humanists (and others) were happy with this, and the limits were about the poor decor in the Limerick office (and elsewhere, I would suspect), and how the Registrar worked only on weekdays and it was quite hard to get the Registrar to officiate at places outside the Office. Many other people wanted the type of ceremony that the Humanist Celebrants organise, and saw no good reason to have to go to the Registry Office as well.

The people within the Humanist Association of Ireland (HAI), and people who attend the Mid West Humanists, who see difficulty with the HAI and the Civil Registration Amendment Act 2012 (CRAA), have never spoken against pairs of people (who plan to marry or be civil partners) getting to have only one ceremony and it having no religious content. All the critics of the HAI’s stance see this aim as entirely reasonable.

Continue reading →

Filed under: constitution, debate, ethical issues, humanism, ireland, Meetings, morality, political issues, social issues | Tagged: constitution of ireland, equal rights, Human Rights, humanism, ireland, law, marriage, organisation, politics, society | Leave a comment »

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We campaign to remove Blasphemy from the Constitution, on the streets

We should have a referendum in 2015 to remove the provision that makes Blasphemy an offence from Ireland’s Constitution. Sign a petition, or visit all your TDs to give your view.

Constitutional Convention Deadline Wednesday 27 11 2013

Submissions to the Constitutional Convention will close on the Convention’s close of business on 27th November 2013

Send your submission now.

Constitutional Convention Deadline

Submissions to the Constitutional Convention will close on 19th November 2013

Tell the Constitutional Convention that you want the Constitution to be Secular

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